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Finally got drawn into the debate about Chickenhawks. It is absurd but on the otherhand it is sort of nice to see the Democrats start shifting their fires with this argument from the Leaders of the Administration to the rank and file of those who support this war. That will surely win them some friends for the next election cycle. It is too much to hope for that they might reconsider cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
This post is a copy of a comment left by me on Cold Fury's blog. The entire Chickenhawk argument revolves around the war in Iraq being unjust. That is simply false and I give it a mild try to show why.
Bogus war? Interesting theory that is pretty much destroyed by even an amateur like myself.
1. Saddam Hussein on July 25 ,President Saddam Hussein of Iraq summoned the United States Ambassador to Baghdad, April GlaspieIf you use pressure, we will deploy pressure and force. We know that you can harm us although we do not threaten you. But we too can harm you. Everyone can cause harm according to their ability and their size. We cannot come all the way to you in the United States, but individual Arabs may reach you.
This is not some neo con plot but a translation of the meeting provided by Saddam's own people. Generally prior to war countries communicate by Ambassador and clearly here Saddam is making his options known.
2. The Plot to Blow up Radio Free Europe The Czech news media have suggested that the reason for Vulterin's dismissal was that BIS failed to inform the government that a terrorist attack was being organized by the Iraqi consul against the Prague headquarters of Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty.
BIS allegedly had been aware that Iraq had requested its consul, Jabir Salim, to organize the terrorist operation against RFE/RL, apparently in retribution for the start-up last year of Radio Free Iraq.
The Czech press says Baghdad sent the consul $50,000 to organize the attack but the consul asked for more money. Baghdad allegedly sent an additional $100,000. The consul then fled to London in December, taking the money, his family and the embassy codes. The government reportedly only found out about the plans to attack RFE/RL from British intelligence.
Further information:
The attempted bombing of Radio Free Europe was planned, organized and directed by the Iraqi intelligence service. The Iraqi official in charge was Jabir Salim, the Iraqi consul in the Czech Republic, and the head of its intelligence station. Salim had been sent $150,000 in two payments by Baghdad to buy untraceable explosives and recruit Arab free-lance terrorists that would provide the cover for Iraq. In December 1998, however, Salim defected and furnished details of the plot to western intelligence services.
Notice that this plot was designed around the same sort of bomb built and used in the WTC93 bombing a Truck Bomb.
3. Speaking of the WTC93 bombing Abdul Rahman Yasin was a co-conspirator who actually helped Ramseh Yousef (or whatever his real name is) mix the chemicals for the bomb. He was interviewed by the FBI then let go. Upon release he vanished into Iraq. He has been interviewed there by ABC but since the liberation of Iraq we have not been able to find him.
4. The attempted Assassination of a former US President was linked by both the CIA and FBI to Iraq. Ironically using the same sort of weapon so prevalent today around the world as the terrorist weapon of choice.
5. Back to Prague the meeting between Atta and Al Ani the diplomat eventually expelled by the Czechs because of his involvement in the plot to blow up Radio Free Europe has never been denied by the principals involved in the original statement. It is worth noting that Atta has been documented by the US intelligence services as visiting Prague on a number of other occasions.
6. The Airliner Fuselage in Salmon Pak was supposed to be to train Saddams Anti Terror squad, whatever else that has been said about him let it not be said that he didn't have a sense of irony.
Now this will not convince anyone because all of this does not revolve around the war between us and those who murdered 3,000 of us on 9/11. The war that is being fought here is the war for power, it is being fought between the Left and Right, Conservative and Liberal and its largely being fought because of a probably fatal arrogance that all sides seem to have.
All the sides in this battle don't seem to think we can be beat and so they are all, left and right, using this war to bludgeon each other to win power or keep it. Interesting times considering for the first time in history a small group can get a Nuclear Weapon and detonate it forever changing society and at the same time we have groups not understanding we are facing an existential threat.
For those who say it won't happen I recommend watching the towers fall again. Try and transport yourself back to those moments when you stared in disbelief at the towers falling. Did you predict that sort of attack? Did you ever in your wildest imagination believe that such a widespread attack would be possible? Now how confident do you feel that you can predict their next move?
When that weapon or another of the same gravity goes off in the United States then we might start paying a bit closer attention to the groups trying their best to kill us. Till then we will continue this bickering as if nothing in the world is more important...sad really.
Finally this entire argument about military and non military people is indicative of the lengths that the left will go to win power as exactly how sad is it to attempt to set civilian against military and military against civilian? It is worth noting that so far the military has lost 1,700 KIA while the civilians have lost 3,000 KIA. And while we are counting remember that the first battle won in this war wasn't won by the Marines as brave as they are, nor by the Delta Force as lethal as they are, nor by the Air force or Army, instead the first battle won was won by Civilians who "adapted, improvised, and overcame" and in hand to hand combat stopped the 4th Jet from its mission. Civilians have absolutely no reason to hang their heads in shame around anyone. This fight belongs to us all.
Pierre
Cold Fury Putting up vs. shutting up
More at Blackfive, Winds of Change, Atrios, Argghhh! The Home Of Two Of Jonah's Military Guys and One Hand Clapping Reference Article
Pierre Legrand @ 7/06/2005 07:04:00 PMThis post is a copy of a comment left by me on Cold Fury's blog. The entire Chickenhawk argument revolves around the war in Iraq being unjust. That is simply false and I give it a mild try to show why.
Bogus war? Interesting theory that is pretty much destroyed by even an amateur like myself.
1. Saddam Hussein on July 25 ,President Saddam Hussein of Iraq summoned the United States Ambassador to Baghdad, April GlaspieIf you use pressure, we will deploy pressure and force. We know that you can harm us although we do not threaten you. But we too can harm you. Everyone can cause harm according to their ability and their size. We cannot come all the way to you in the United States, but individual Arabs may reach you.
This is not some neo con plot but a translation of the meeting provided by Saddam's own people. Generally prior to war countries communicate by Ambassador and clearly here Saddam is making his options known.
2. The Plot to Blow up Radio Free Europe The Czech news media have suggested that the reason for Vulterin's dismissal was that BIS failed to inform the government that a terrorist attack was being organized by the Iraqi consul against the Prague headquarters of Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty.
BIS allegedly had been aware that Iraq had requested its consul, Jabir Salim, to organize the terrorist operation against RFE/RL, apparently in retribution for the start-up last year of Radio Free Iraq.
The Czech press says Baghdad sent the consul $50,000 to organize the attack but the consul asked for more money. Baghdad allegedly sent an additional $100,000. The consul then fled to London in December, taking the money, his family and the embassy codes. The government reportedly only found out about the plans to attack RFE/RL from British intelligence.
Further information:
The attempted bombing of Radio Free Europe was planned, organized and directed by the Iraqi intelligence service. The Iraqi official in charge was Jabir Salim, the Iraqi consul in the Czech Republic, and the head of its intelligence station. Salim had been sent $150,000 in two payments by Baghdad to buy untraceable explosives and recruit Arab free-lance terrorists that would provide the cover for Iraq. In December 1998, however, Salim defected and furnished details of the plot to western intelligence services.
Notice that this plot was designed around the same sort of bomb built and used in the WTC93 bombing a Truck Bomb.
3. Speaking of the WTC93 bombing Abdul Rahman Yasin was a co-conspirator who actually helped Ramseh Yousef (or whatever his real name is) mix the chemicals for the bomb. He was interviewed by the FBI then let go. Upon release he vanished into Iraq. He has been interviewed there by ABC but since the liberation of Iraq we have not been able to find him.
4. The attempted Assassination of a former US President was linked by both the CIA and FBI to Iraq. Ironically using the same sort of weapon so prevalent today around the world as the terrorist weapon of choice.
5. Back to Prague the meeting between Atta and Al Ani the diplomat eventually expelled by the Czechs because of his involvement in the plot to blow up Radio Free Europe has never been denied by the principals involved in the original statement. It is worth noting that Atta has been documented by the US intelligence services as visiting Prague on a number of other occasions.
6. The Airliner Fuselage in Salmon Pak was supposed to be to train Saddams Anti Terror squad, whatever else that has been said about him let it not be said that he didn't have a sense of irony.
Now this will not convince anyone because all of this does not revolve around the war between us and those who murdered 3,000 of us on 9/11. The war that is being fought here is the war for power, it is being fought between the Left and Right, Conservative and Liberal and its largely being fought because of a probably fatal arrogance that all sides seem to have.
All the sides in this battle don't seem to think we can be beat and so they are all, left and right, using this war to bludgeon each other to win power or keep it. Interesting times considering for the first time in history a small group can get a Nuclear Weapon and detonate it forever changing society and at the same time we have groups not understanding we are facing an existential threat.
For those who say it won't happen I recommend watching the towers fall again. Try and transport yourself back to those moments when you stared in disbelief at the towers falling. Did you predict that sort of attack? Did you ever in your wildest imagination believe that such a widespread attack would be possible? Now how confident do you feel that you can predict their next move?
When that weapon or another of the same gravity goes off in the United States then we might start paying a bit closer attention to the groups trying their best to kill us. Till then we will continue this bickering as if nothing in the world is more important...sad really.
Finally this entire argument about military and non military people is indicative of the lengths that the left will go to win power as exactly how sad is it to attempt to set civilian against military and military against civilian? It is worth noting that so far the military has lost 1,700 KIA while the civilians have lost 3,000 KIA. And while we are counting remember that the first battle won in this war wasn't won by the Marines as brave as they are, nor by the Delta Force as lethal as they are, nor by the Air force or Army, instead the first battle won was won by Civilians who "adapted, improvised, and overcame" and in hand to hand combat stopped the 4th Jet from its mission. Civilians have absolutely no reason to hang their heads in shame around anyone. This fight belongs to us all.
Pierre
Cold Fury Putting up vs. shutting up
More at Blackfive, Winds of Change, Atrios, Argghhh! The Home Of Two Of Jonah's Military Guys and One Hand Clapping Reference Article
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